Episode 7: The Great Debate - Deciding Whether or Not to Have Kids

Yeah. I can't believe you're still here. Thanks for coming back. ⁓

I've c I bought a microphone. I have to keep coming back.

Well, I was talking to the audience.

Fuck like you don't have confidence in me.

I mean I'm the one who tried to cancel today's recording, so

Hi, welcome back to catching up with Liz and Evie.

Hi, welcome back. Every time you say hi, I always go to reply, hi, but you're not talking to me. You're talking to them. Yes.

And you all are welcome to reply hi for the intro. Please. Please, please. Please, please tell me about your week.

Last week was great. ⁓ thanks for asking. lots of work, just working and really not enough chores. The house never stops being dirty. And then yeah, yesterday I went to actually I didn't go to San Juan, I went to Cialis or Sidra. ⁓ it's kind of like it's on toward the east coast, so toward San Juan, but ⁓ certainly closer to San Juan than. than Rincon. But yeah, it was cool. It was a beautiful drive to get there.

Normally when I have to go to someone for point fighting compositions, ⁓ which is what that was, ⁓ I have to go drive through the the metro area and go north through lots of traffic. But we got to go south this time. And the south route is beautiful. It's very much, much more about nature. ⁓ like gorgeous scenic things like very I always think of like Hawaii and like the mountains that you see there and just like the green slopiness and like the sun.

It was beautiful. We had to go very early. I woke up at 4 30 in the morning yesterday and ⁓ picked up my friend around six thirty and then we made the two hour drive to Sedra. So it was pretty. We got to see the sun rising over the mountains, ⁓ with the ocean on our right, mountains on our left and And then the location and like the spot where we had this kickboxing event was really cool too.

It was like open air kind of gymnasium with a lot of yeah, and like huge ceiling fans, just like a lot of air flowing through it. Yeah. So it wasn't like I was freezing and air conditioning and I wasn't like sweating. It was a really nice event. Yeah. So we did some boxing. Honestly, a little disappointed in myself.

That's really cool. Great.

I've only been to a couple of these and the thing about these competitions, point fighting is a type of kickboxing competition. Every time someone scores a point, they like stop the match and then you reset. It's very much like fencing in that way. And ⁓ but I only was there there wasn't a lot of people. There's not a lot of people my age who go to these things. So it ended up just being me and my training partner who trains with me here in Rincon fighting against each other for one two-minute round.

And so yeah, I just didn't perform that well and like it was over. It felt like in the blink of an eye, like before I could figure out what was what, it was done. And ⁓ so it was just kind of like frustrating. You know, these events are so far away. ⁓

It's tricky that you don't know and there's no way I guess really to do it, but you don't know what you're showing up for or like how you know, the day you're gonna have. And it's it's when you're gonna be fighting. There's like it's like I feel like mentally it's hard to prep for.

Exactly. But now I really do think I know the answer to that question. I think there's only four people on this island who ever fight at the event. And that's who I'm gonna either fight or not fight. Like Well, I have ⁓ No, like literally. Yeah. Yeah. Like it's the same people at every event. And so I think knowing that now, it's just like figuring out where I want to go from there. So all in all, it was really great to watch the other like professional

You should just get their numbers, hey, who's doing the

more advanced people fight. And like it's so cool. I I do love the sport so much. It's so ⁓ impressive and just watching like the strategy involved when people are at like a high level of something. And no matter what it is, it's just

It is cool, I guess, to get out of the ⁓ training and you're seeing more people fight and you're seeing like actual live ⁓ matches. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah.

It's super and like they really need refs and things like that and I almost ref to match, which is ridiculous. Or like help ref. They do like multiple people at different angles and each each one gives their like take on who they thought right got the point and then the main ref decides ⁓ based on the the object. That's so

Much less pressure on wrapping.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's pretty great. Just like I guess multiple refs on any like field at the same time would like convene and like give their opinions. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so it's just cool to it's cool to definitely get more in touch with like that community. And it is the same people every time. So you really do get to know people's names and ⁓ it's cool. And and I do really love like ⁓ living in Puerto Rico, like I dn don't really ever want to be siloed into in one like ⁓ tiny town, you know what I mean?

Like this island is large. It's so cool to be able to like travel around the island and see so many different towns that I never would.

They are so different. There's so many. I remember the first time we went, I was struck the beaches are so different, which is very cool because that's like you just think a beach is a beach, but in Puerto Rico, no. They're all like have their own unique flair. But then also like you have like the mountains and the the forest and it it's all it's really cool. There's so much variety.

They're so different. It's super diverse and like yeah, you can you can really get a a a lot. Like you can get mountains, you can get hiking, rivers, streams, all these things, the beach, underwater, you can go scuba diving. Like Puerto Rico has so much to offer. Yesterday was so focused on point fighting everything. So like yesterday was just like a wash and ⁓ but I did go to the beach on Saturday and that was really nice.

And then this I just got added to this group chat. Because with like Stephen Gaelic as the leader of this group chat. Shout out Steven. ⁓ because we're going to Colorado in June for a little Gallic cousin camping trip. I thought it was like the Gallic Cousin trip. This group chat is full of people who are not Gaelics. Which is awesome. I think that's great. I'm excited to meet some Colorado people. ⁓

Call okay, not even like connected to directly.

No, I don't I I don't know anyone in the screen chat. And there's like fifteen of them. Anyway, so that's coming up. I'll update you guys. And that's where I'm at right now. Liz, how was your week?

It was good. Sammy, it's like funny. You look back and you're like, what even was this week? Such a blur. But it was nice. It was ⁓ my father in law's birthday on Saturday. So I made Flawn for the first time to bring. Wow. It came out really good. Good for you. We got ⁓ my in-laws got me this cookbook, Gloria Estevan's cookbook.

That's awesome. Yeah. For sure.

So I'm like, okay, I wanna like try to start doing more recipes from there. just cause I don't know, it's it's all human food. I wanna learn it and also like have Rio learn it and know like this is, you know, part of his culture. Anyway, so I was like, okay, let me try to make flaunt. And like it c it's notoriously, I think, kinda tricky, but it came out pretty good.

Nice. Congrats. That is a big deal. I f I would be very intimidated, especially for ooh, for Abuela's birthday.

Yes. It was hard, but it wasn't like as hard. Sure. As I thought it would be.

You were never like stumped, like I don't know how this is gonna work.

It's just like if one part gets messed up like it yeah. And then you don't really know if it gets messed up or not until the end result when you're like flipping it. So And that's the part where you're like bringing it to the place. So it could epically fail in front of people.

Okay,

and then we had a wedding on Thursday. It was very nice. It was very, very sweet.

That's right. What stood out to you about that wedding?

Her dance with her well the music was really cute. It was like a lot of like ⁓ classic I wanna say classic music, but that sounds like classical music. Like classic rock, but not only classic rock. You know what I mean? Okay. If that makes sense. And I'm like, I wish I could name more songs, but that's not my

Rock sounds like standard wedding music. Was it not standard wedding music?

Like no. Okay. No. Yes, I think. Better deeper picks. Deep yeah, yeah, yeah. Deeper picks. Okay. It was very it was very sweet. Like her and her dad dan it like a very just like cute dance. Like they both knew all the lyrics. It was very like, you know, they're like mo like musical moments where they both like, ha and like looked at each other. So it was very cute. All of the like the seating chart, everyone had a record label.

And that was like you had to find instead of a table number, you had to find your record.

That's cute. That's cute. Okay, so there's a music theme going.

Going on. It was a music theme going. Okay. It was very sweet.

Sweet. And they obviously picked the music on. Yes.

Okay. And it was like ten minutes from us, which was really nice. Yeah, huge. And we went they all went to like this coffee shop that's near us, ⁓ the next day. So we went and of course Friday was like weirdly like cold, like chilly. Sure. so anyway, we go, we bring Rio and we ordered food and coffee and I ordered it to go. So you have I had this big like latte cup and we're like it took a little while, so I was like bringing them out in you know.

You really can't beat that.

Like I brought one thing out and then was waiting for Andrew, whatever. So I'm sitting at the table outside on the porch of this coffee place. And I'm just thinking all of a sudden I feel like warmth down my legs. And I was like, what the heck? And Rio had grabbed the latte cup and just fully ⁓

⁓ don't do it.

So he had this little like blanket on, that's mostly what got covered. We grabbed a sweatshirt from the car for him. But I was like, Okay, we're at that stage.

Where you are a mother with your child pouring stuff all over So That is really funny. Honestly that feels like a milestone.

my that was kinda funny. Yeah. He's like eating. He like full like he loves eggs. It's cute 'cause he chews. But like same like he'll wanna like grab anything I'm eating. He's like offended if I don't

Point. And how does that make you feel this as someone who doesn't want this shit? You're like yours. You don't even have any siblings, Rio. Okay. Everything is yours. Let me have this.

Chill. It's actually so cute, actually I love it. Like you can have all of my food. It's fine. Yeah, it's very sweet.

That's so cute. I do. I love everything you say about being a mum.

Aw, that's really nice.

I do. I lo any any tidbit you say about it, I like it like adds like a another depth to our relationship, I feel. You as a mom. And I'm sure that that's the way with anyone, really, but like I feel I don't know. We also have we get to talk so much now. And I and I really am like really grateful for it. I feel like ⁓ like it's just so nice to be

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

having conversations that build on each other, like obviously on purpose, we're setting that up, but like

But in actuality it is very sweet for us as well because we are connecting, yeah. Right.

Because like yes, we're planning to do this, but also it doesn't stop it from building up our relationship all over again.

Exactly, exactly. Just because it's planned doesn't mean it's not like real. It's funny. I finally listened to episode two that just dropped. Yeah. And I was like, ⁓ this is good. I'm like listening to the things we learned during at twenty. I I like, Yeah, I stand by everything. Yeah. Distracts.

I love that. I know when you text me that, I'm like obviously we're doing this podcast, but I was like ⁓ any positive feedback from anyone about anything that we've put out in the world, I'm like that like

Truly. It was like it was a little scary putting the first one out. I'm like, what even do we like what was I saying? Like what's going on? And then like you I don't know, I'm not a big social media poster. So like posting about it, I'm like, this is so cringy, just putting myself out there. But like, you what? No, F it, embrace the cringe. Who actually cares? We're trying something new. And then now like the first one, whatever.

It's like a little bit awkward getting the flow of it. It just is. It's part of the process. But the second one, I'm like, I'm enjoying listening to this. And I first the first ten minutes I was like I actually hate listening to my own voice but then it got into it, you get past it and I'm like, No, this is I like this. We did a good job. Probably the rest of the episodes are, but I do like I do like the second one so

Do you have No, I think they a hundred percent agree. I think they get better and better every time. I No, it is funny, like I have listened to myself way too much as I edit this. ⁓ and that's what I was gonna say. The the second one's great. The third one, it gets so good, I can't even tell you. I have listened to the first twenty minutes of our third episode a million times because as you'll know by now, listeners, the audio in that one not so great.

I mean, it's fine. The audio from the you just can tell that it's like not our microphones, but it's really passable. It's fine. But the audio from our microphones got really weird. And so I've listened to it a gazillion times to test if it's gotten better with whatever software I run it through. And ⁓ it's just so fucking funny. I just love us so much. And that one we're in person. So I just feel like obviously the energy is so much like more alive and like it's like we're just really feeding into each other so well.

⁓ and I love it so much. So I'm just excited to keep doing it. I feel like it's just gonna get better and better.

I agree. I fully agree. So for today, we wanted to talk about an article that your mom actually sent you. It's called The Joy of Adult Kids by Larissa Phillips.

Yes, she did. This is something from the Free Press. Yes. Which ⁓ I don't know too much about the Free Press. This isn't like a ⁓ co signing of the Free Press, but but that's where we got this article. And my mom really likes Larissa Phillips. So she's so funny. She like texted me one day. I think I c I think I called her on Mother's Day actually. And I was like, you know, talking to my mom on Mother's Day.

And then she was like, Did you get my email? I was like, ⁓ when did you email me? She was like, yesterday. And I was like, no, I don't check my email on Saturdays or ever. But thank you for saying something. And then I went and found that. ⁓ and yeah, it's just so my mom to send me this. And I feel like so this article is called The Joy of H the Joy of Adult Kids.

And I just like I can totally see why my mom sent this to me because

Why do you think she sent it to you? That's what I was asked.

Okay. ⁓ yeah. So my mom definitely is someone who my mom has seven kids and I'm number five. So I have a lot of older siblings who have kids and I have two younger siblings as well who, you know, as I grew older and my older siblings moved away, I still had these little siblings to like look after and things like that. So I feel like my mom knows my experience, what I've shared of like growing up and like having nephews and nieces when I was still in high school.

⁓ something that was not an unfamiliar thing in my friend group. So it wasn't crazy, but I saw my siblings become parents and saw how they parented and all those things. And and so I got married at twenty six, twenty seven, and me and my husband do not have kids yet. We do want to have kids, but we're not we're not just We're not in a rush to have kids, exactly. ⁓ but my mom knows I want kids and

You're not in a rush.

One day. And so but anything that that like positively reinforces the idea, she's gonna send my way. Especially in a way that is done in a it in a well written way. Like my mom also knows my style of writing and I feel like this article is very up my alley in forms of style. Anyway, it was a really good shot, mom. I think 'cause I I did really enjoy the article. What did you think about it?

To sum up the article, just to give you a ⁓ we can maybe post the link. But ⁓ to give people a quick summary, it's about a woman who starts out the article by saying a story when she was twenty nine. She was six months pregnant, she went out with an older coworker who was telling her about going out to lunch with her grown adult son. And then it's her talking the woman who wrote it, Larissa Phillips, ⁓ who was six months pregnant at the time.

was talking about motherhood in general and how she never really understood people who said they didn't want kids. Well, I don't know if she says that explicitly, but she always said she wanted kids and talks about how like, okay, I'm not gonna change my life just because I'm having kids. And she details like kinda a little bit through each stage of motherhood, like infant to toddler to teenage to then having adult kids. And it's not exactly as this older woman twenty seven years ago predicted for her where they're just casually out to lunch.

But she predicts having an adult relationship she talks about having an adult relationship with your children. ⁓ and then says like it's worth it have kids, like get past it's not all about just like the crying and hard young, like newborn and toddler years. It's worth it to have a family and have adult children.

Right. Totally. And Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think too I think I think at the root of it, when she's setting up the article, I think she's really trying to communicate, like I made a note here that was like, ⁓ the ⁓ the generation before her, like, were the first generations to regret maternal timelines, which I thought was a fascinating way to put it. People her age, her peers, were reacting to their mother's

Ultimately, ⁓

Who regretted having kids too early, who were like who just like had a lot of complaining to do about parenthood and how it really like stopped them from pursuing things and things like that. So her peers were very reluctant to having kids. In fact, she calls and then she calls Gen Z child phobic, which I was like, is that too harsh or is that correct? Like what a thing. Which like I'm assuming this

No.

person shares a lot of my mom's views. So I'm like reading it through the lens of like let me critique a little bit what we're doing here.

I think child phobic is a little bit extreme, maybe just sh child cautious, which is I everyone should

Yeah. I think I mean everyone should be. It's it's an interesting descriptor. I okay. I I honestly was like, is that the case or is it more so it's just like not so much focused on the having kids, focused on like, am I good? And also I think adolescence has prolonged itself. But anyway, I think she did a great job of like setting up like there's this she felt contrarian by having kids.

Yeah, yeah. It makes you think.

And I think nowadays that's not the case. So ultimately I felt like her point of view too wasn't like she was obviously pro have kids, which I think is interesting. And it was said and it was conveyed ultimately in a very ⁓ like unbiased way, in my opinion. Or not unbiased, but like unpushy. Like it wasn't I didn't feel like you should have kids. Like if you don't have kids, it's wrong. She was more just I'm making the case for having kids.

It was a Right, right.

That's it. And I appreciated it. ⁓ and she in such an engaging way.

Yeah, it was a very like it's a short read and it was a very nice article. It's funny 'cause my first my first thought was ⁓ like again, she opens with being twenty nine and she's six months pregnant. I like, ⁓ that was me I think. Yeah.

Yeah, probably.

Not exactly, but whatever. Around some very similar. ⁓ and like an older woman is talking about going to lunch with her adult son. And I'm like, I have worked with so many women of all different ages, but a lot of adult women who or, you know, older women who have adult children or who have I worked with them f through like teenage years to college to even like graduating college. And just like, you know, you get to know people.

So I feel like I had that perspective of relationships that parents have with their kids and as they get older. And what's interesting in the article, she talks about how her relationships change. She's like, her and her son, she it doesn't exactly say, but you get the idea that her and her son are very similar. And the fact that her son likes reading, had the same favorite book at nine, which was her favorite book when she was nine years old.

But then like he becomes Distant, you know, teenage years, door shut. But then like they had to discover and are still discovering their relationship while he's in his twenties. But it yeah, you get the idea that they're very ⁓ similar. And I don't know, I've it's just like so interesting. And it makes me think, obviously, having a boy, like what our relationship is going to be. And I'm not naive to think that he's always like. gonna be mommy's little boy.

Like I just I know that's not the case. And I very much don't want him to be. I want him to be his own person and I want him to discover himself. And if that means he, you know, goes his own way. Like I think for me, my biggest takeaway after reading the article and of course thinking

Yeah, you have a

for myself, ⁓ with having a boy and having a a baby, is I just want to always be myself and be consistent in that so that he can get to know me for who I am. And then be I'm always gonna be consistently me and then he can figure out who he is, but he always knows who I am. Does that make sense? Like I think that was my big cut down for real.

⁓ yeah, that I say that as a joke a lot, but maybe write that one down. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. How do you how do you intend to stay you? ⁓ do you feel like that's something that has to be consciously done? Like like she says in the article, like she really wanted to not let motherhood change her? Do you feel like Yeah, well I think

Also a little bit naive to say I don't want motherhood to change me. Like you're going through a a huge change in life. You're gonna change in some way. Mostly for the better because you're just gonna expand because it's hard and you're doing things that you've never done before. So you become just you you're able to do more and harder things. So you are going to grow and expand. ⁓ but yeah, I think it's a little bit naive to say motherhood isn't gonna change you.

So But like at the same time, the benefit of having kids a little bit later is that you know what you know yourself a little bit more. So we've talked about this a few times actually, but like the you go back to the things that, you know, ground you. Like for me, it's getting outside. It's making sure I'm as consistent as I can be with working out. ⁓ because those are things that are really important to me.

I'm getting back into cooking. I'm also like trying to cook. new foods and I'm trying like this Cuban cookbook and feeds that I never had growing up, but I like want to expose myself to because again, I want to expand and show those things to Rio. And I want him to maybe at least if he doesn't like cooking, I want him to like know that he doesn't like cooking because he's tried it.

I love that. And your podcasting?

And I'm podcasting. Like, yeah, you're just always like, don't you know, you can't be afraid to try new things. Put yourself out there.

Grow your community. Like all the things we learned in our twenties.

Exactly. All the things. But yeah, you're definitely gonna change your motherhood, but you also the benefit of having kids a little bit later is like you know kind of how to re how to feel like yourself again. Maybe you like can play around with your style if that's something important to you or reading books. Like you're not you have to do something for you a little bit every day. And that's hard. Like it's you're you're constantly taking care of another person.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's easy not to do those things when I don't have kids. Like

It's easy not to do those things, period. Yeah. And yeah. But you I think you've realized like when you have a kid, for me, I've realized it's important to just put in the whatever effort and energy it is, even if it's like a ten minute workout and I'm pushing him in the shoulder and he's watching me and it's still he's with me constantly, but like I'm doing it for me. And you're kinda doing it for him too.

Like you want him to you're happy. And when you're happy, he's happier.

liked when she said too what exactly what you're talking about. She was like, at one point she's like, I was silly to think it wouldn't change me. Like I was never coming back from this. I didn't want to. Which I think is just kind of really like romantic in a way. It's like like I totally get that. I feel like before I have kids, that's my main thought is like, have I done a few of the things that I want to have done before I all of my before my like entire

Where it gets outlook changing hard to do those things.

So I don't know, that goes through my mind. But I loved that she said I was never coming back from this. I didn't want to. It's like just the right kind of dramatic note that that I would say.

What do you think of her in the article? Like obviously she's like pro have kids, it's worth it. But what do you think of the okay, like I don't want kids? 'Cause I yeah. I feel like we've talked about this. It's like we could see our life ex like we know what our life would be if we didn't have kids and it's good. Like it would be good.

Sure. Okay. So I feel like it's definitely more in pop culture right now. Like the line is certainly like let's make sure to talk about the beautiful option of not having kids because it just wasn't talked about for so long and it wasn't normalized. And it still is. Like if I was like, it's different to if you're like with a partner, I feel. Like if you're with a partner and you're both deciding not to have kids.

That's like a badass thing. That's contrarian kind of like what the author here has said. ⁓ and so that kind of has a little like, hell yeah, to it. But what if you're single and you also don't want to have kids? I feel like that for a woman is still super like weird for people to understand. ⁓ and it's almost like, I don't believe you. You just don't have a partner. And it's like, well.

That's kind of No, like I know this, I know myself. Not everyone has wanted to have kids since they were kids.

Yeah, I think it's And just because it's like it feels maybe like this I'm trying to think of like ⁓ from my mom's point of view, or or just someone ⁓ who's not a millennial, like whatever, whatever. Trying to think from the perspective of like ⁓ older people in my life. ⁓ and if like this feels like a little cultural thing that's like very popular, like this is the popular thing to say right now. I don't want kids, I don't want kids.

It's it's it's really not, I feel. I feel like it's stu it's still super not popular to not want to have kids. ⁓ or still just like

Rare.

Or I don't know what the word is, I'm looking for it. But it's not like the Exactly. So everyone can chill. But the reason it's being talked about that much is because it hasn't really been talked about that much yet. It's still a super like fresh thing to make common. Like it's still something we're trying to make normal. That women should be left alone. No one should be asking them when they plan to procreate and who with.

Like there's still

It's not the majority.

Just that that people are fighting against. So articles like this, I also I like I do kind of welcome because everything is, you know, everything within the discussion is welcome. Especially this didn't really give any like the only reason they gave for having kids is that they've enjoyed their experience. And I think that's so valid. And there's nothing there's never anything wrong with that. Like sharing your experience is awesome. And if your experience was like that and you think it's a good one to share and that you think if if people want similar experiences to yours, they should have kids.

And how then that's great.

Yeah. A lot of people how do I wanna say this? You don't hear a lot of people saying, I regret having kids 'cause that's a weird thing to say.

I mean but there's the thing, I have heard people say that.

Yes, exactly.

we talk about this, hear those stories. And I think that's so important. Because what if I do have kids and one day I'm like, I just regret it in this moment. I reg like I or just like have complicated feelings about it. Guess what? That's okay.

Exactly. You're allowed to. And I I think what ⁓ there's just there's because you're hearing that perspective of people like, I never really wanted kids, or parenthood is hard and here's why, or here's what was challenging for me. We as a younger generation have significantly more information on having kids. You're not just like it's not part of life anymore. You do have the choice now. So you can take in this information and decide for yourself. And I think something that's interesting that again, she kinda pointed out in the article, is when you have kids, you're not just having a baby.

Like you're becoming a parent. You're raising. It's all stages of life.

But the goal of having adult kids who are functional and interesting. She really like the point of this article is really like have kids 'cause they might be really cool. And like and that is awesome. That's really cool. However, it's not really a good reason to have kids. You also

to like yeah you c you can choose to have kids but you have to choose to be a parent you have to choose to like okay but you have to put the effort in to raise cool interesting adults that you want to get to know as adults and be friends with as adults. I think that's the goal. It's like you you're not gonna be like you're gonna be their mom forever or their parent forever, but like you're not gonna be parenting them forever.

They're gonna be their own person at a certain point. So you have to like get to know them as that person.

Yeah, and like you were saying before, you're really excited to just let them become a person. And it does seem like not only from this article, but from so many perspectives we've been given in our lives, it does seem that kids do kind of turn on their parents. Obviously. But then it does seem that they come back, which i is honestly a fascinating thing. And here's why I will have kids. I am

Who come on?

Just I just I need to experience that. Like I honestly I also like I don't love the beginning. I don't like when people say things are hard, just do them anyway. Like anything worth doing is hard. Like, sure, that doesn't mean you need to be a parent. Like there's a lot like the people who this exactly why people are choosing not to have kids. They're choosing a different hard thing. You know what I mean? And like That's also why I'm like I'm probably definitely gonna have kids because I don't really wanna choose a different art thing.

Like I I think this one I'll have like at least support and a community as

To choose a hard thing. You can just continue living a life that you like. That is like enjoyable and relatively easy.

One hundred percent, but I also do think life gets hard when it's easy in a weird way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're gonna have challenges, like ever.

Whatever challenges. Yeah. Not to be too philosophical, but like I was thinking about that too while I was rapping home from work, which takes me about a hundred and twenty seconds. And in that hundred and twenty seconds, I was like, if if it's like if I had to choose a hard thing, it's exactly this. I was like sometimes boredom is kinda like hell though. And like and then you just end up doing nothing and getting depressed.

I don't even know what I'm talking about, but That seems like its own It seems like something I know less how to deal with than a kid.

Right. It's also interesting because you have younger siblings, I have younger siblings. We have experience with like kids, like young kids. So and I think I always knew that I like I've been with babies all my life. I've been with toddlers all my life. Like I some people I think are their best parent at certain stages of their kids' life. I don't know if that's coming across correctly. Like some people, like they'll have maybe like multiple, like three kids and they're like, ⁓ my favorite stage is this stage.

I always knew that like newborn baby wasn't gonna be my favorite stage. Like I still love of course, and I love like newborns and I love babies, but I always like giving them back to their parent. But I'm like, Okay, like when I have kids, I can't do that. Like I'm like fully committing to it to this stage. And like it's hard, of course, and it's so enjoyable though, at the same time. But I am like I feel like I'm gonna be a really good parent.

When he's a little bit older, we can have conversations. Like that's what I'm excited for. Yeah. But that that being said, I don't know who he's gonna be. So

We gotta have multiple, have more kids. What you said about us having so much more information about this kinds of stuff, like is just it's like the root of this conversation because it's encouraging when women to me it's encouraging to me when women talk about not wanting to have kids because it just feels like, okay, great. There's enough safe space for women to talk about not wanting to have kids. Like

Keep going.

It's so intertwined with all the other societal and like political issues of our time as well. Like it's not none of these things ever happen in a vacuum. And I think conversations and discussions around this topic to me always just signal that we're educated, we're we're ⁓ more educated on topics related to this too, I would say. That's what that like signals to me. If I see people talking about this on TikTok or Instagram or whatever, I'm just like, okay, great.

That means like if we're talking about this, we must also be talking about abortion. We must also be talking about women's right to vote that like some people say we shouldn't have anymore. I'm sure it's like we're talking about paternity leave. We're talking about voting. Like all these things. You know what mean? So I just feel like it's super important to talk about it. And I have no problem talking about wanting kids too. I just feel like That's if someone would have that reaction of like, this person's gonna convince my daughter not to have kids.

⁓ I just find that so silly. Like to cause like at the end of the day, you are responsible for your own choices. There's a million voices out there. And like all of this any woman who doesn't want to have kids has no gives no fucks if anyone else has kids. Exactly. We need women who have time to

Yeah. It doesn't mean they don't have the time.

We just need women.

We just need women. We we really do. The superior species.

Shout out to all my dinks out there. Shout out to all my child free women. Yes. it does so it's funny that she says like she felt contrarian in the article because it does feel like it does feel a little bit like there was a form of resistance I could have taken and not having kids. And I'm probably not gonna take that.

I know it is funny. Like when that's I'm like when we got when when I was like, all right, we're doing this, we're like trying whatever, got pregnant. I was like, All right, well, I'm not, you know, I'm going down this line. I'm not going down like the I'm like, all right, pro woman all the way, but like I'm also having kids. It is like a funny, yeah, like contradiction it feels like it's not

Right. It feels hard because it's the most woman thing well, see, then there you say that and like that's not true either. But it is an extremely empowering thing to do as a woman. I mean, the giver of life? Come on now. Come on. It is funny. No, it is a wild

Right, right, right, right. Well, ⁓ what is the I think it's called Tom Lake or basically it's a book, yeah, it's about ⁓ this family during COVID. They live in Michigan on like a cherry farm and they have three girls and as they're like picking cherries during c like they're all home, ⁓ she's like has different conversations with her daughters and she's telling them about her life and how she used to go to this one ⁓ like it's a ⁓ Farm, not farm, like it was like an acting camp, I think.

Whatever. She used to go there growing up and she's just like telling her daughters about her life. And then she's having these conversations with her daughters. It's like a little bit of a boring book, but that that really good boring. ⁓ but one of her daughters tells her that she and her partner don't want to have kids. And at first she's like hurt by it, almost like, ⁓ like that's sad. You know, I'm not gonna have grandkids with.

By you at least. But then she asks, you know, she just like gets past it because it's her daughter's life, it's not her life. And ⁓ she asks why. And their whole reasoning is like global warming and they don't know what the world's gonna look like and it's ⁓ not on a great track right now. So I think that's a whole other thing to think about when I was having kids is like, ⁓ my God, like, yeah, what is this world?

There's this fear as an individual I have of like I feel as if I am lacking in my ability to plan for the future, like any future, and that I really don't think too far ahead and that I really feel incapable of doing so sometimes. And that freaks me out as a parent. But also, ⁓ then I was thinking about like it was either this article or something else where they were talking about like probably this, where she's just envisioning the adulthood that her kids would have and like in and confirming the richness of that.

And I feel like I was like, ⁓ my God, like instead of being afraid for my kids' future, like having a kid, let's say I have like a two-year-old right now, like, ⁓ like I think that might expand my own, like you're saying, it makes you expand. I'm like, imagine that expands my view of the future. It like splits my view of the it takes me Not out of it, but I'm no longer the center of my future.

And like that idea actually excites me greatly where I'm like, this could change everything.

And it could be helpful for that aspect of you. It is to that point when you think like when I think, ⁓ like five years from now, I'm like, ⁓ my god, I'm gonna have a five year old. Like there's something so reassuring and yeah, exactly definitive. I don't know if reassuring is the right word, 'cause it is definitely scary too. But it's something so definitive and like yeah.

Finned it. Super real. Yeah. Which like is cr that's a crazy reality. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's crazy. Cause you're like, no matter what else happens, this little child will be five. And so much can happen in five years. That's crazy.

Exactly. Let's see how good it can get. No, but yeah, it is it is something very ⁓ interesting to that point. That's something you know is gonna be there. So it like no matter what you're planning for your future, there is one definite. Which is like like you can look at it as scary or it could be helpful. Exciting. It is exciting.

I know, which which I always call myself out on those things where I'm like, Okay, well, is that a selfish reason to have parents? Me or to have parents, to have kids. But then again, if it

People had kids for selfish reasons throughout history. Like people had kids to work on like their land. Like that that is the most selfish reason to have. And that's what it was.

But I mean my mom said that's why she had us to wash the dishes. That's and to this day I hate fucking washing more kids. ⁓ my god. No, I I think I don't think that's calling something selfish to me isn't a reason not to do something either. Like being selfish is okay. ⁓ But yeah, I mean I definitely push against that idea of like I don't want to have kids banking on the fact that it like

And there's more dishes. It's a life. ⁓

will turn me into a person I want to be. But also it might just turn me into a person I want to be. And if that's the way it goes, that's the way it goes. Like Oops. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. It's just a

It's a conversation that we could just go on and on about.

It is. I could talk about this for yeah.

It is nice to like I I think it ultimately it is nice that you're seeing both sides of the conversation. Like I'm very happy with my decision to not have kids, very happy with my decision to have kids. And then it Yes. Yeah. I think there was a season of Love is Blind recently where one of the w women wasn't sure if she wanted to have kids or not. And then her sister was like, Look. And she just like laid it down.

She's like she didn't s r say She regretted having kids. But she was talking as if she's like, look, I just want you to know, like, here's the brutal honesty of like how hard it is. And she was like, she's like laying it out on her sister. I like, don't get married if you're not sure because this is what it's like. And I was like, okay, that's interesting. But we can talk about how good it is too.

Like if you want. This is true. You can mention that too. But ultimately, I think it is good. Right, exactly. It is good that you're having like the perspective. And it's like

Bit. We know why.

Good either way.

Yeah. It's kind of like what we talked about when you told us Rio's birth story, because like no like you really don't know what you're in for until you go through it because it's so hard to talk about, like the actual truth of it. Like it's hard to convey it. It's hard to find the words. And I'm sure that's the case for parenting a lot of the time. But

Think like the too much information sometimes is too much information. Where if you know deep down you've always wanted to have kids, like you want to be a parent. And okay, it's like you can prepare yourself for you're not really sure how it's gonna go. It's gonna be hard, but you know the type of hard that it's going to be. You can do it. Yeah. And you know, and and and it's not ⁓ forever. It's temporary.

Like postpartum is temporary. It can be longer for some people. Like they're all like seasons of life and there's really like there's gonna be hard seasons regardless.

Yeah. Honestly, just hearing us kind of like talk back and forth of like the same points a few times. I'm kind of hit by like it's o I feel like the difference between our generation and maybe like two generations back is that like the amount of time we have to to really because like like you're saying, like maybe too much information. It's also like too much time deliberating and talking about it. ⁓ not not really too much, but like we have that much time to talk about because we're In supportive relationships too, where we can communicate about these things and like it's not an assumption that we're gonna have kids, it's an actual conversation.

Yeah, exactly, and an actual choice. Martha Stewart's documentary on ⁓

I mean I did. ⁓ excited.

She talks about having kids because it's just what people having a daughter 'cause it's ⁓ it's just what people did. Right. And then but she never really had that maternal instinct. So I think like, you know, they have an adult relationship now and she talks about it. But she said, like, I've never really was a maternal person. I just did it because that's what you were supposed to do. And I think that's not what people are doing these days, is that people are that's what people are trying to avoid and like really decide.

We're trying to avoid.

Like is this something I want? And I

I love that you brought that up because that's such a good example of like it's obvious for us to see that that might be the case, like with Martha Stewart. or it's just not surprising to hear that, in my opinion. But her like talking about that, and it seems that she has talked about that with her daughter because they do have a well, in that documentary, it seemed that they had a good relationship now. Like, you as long as you can talk about anything, you can kind of just like.

build your relationship regardless. Like, because she can share that with her daughter, I bet you that brought them really close. You know what I mean? Like even if you regret having kids, if you can communicate about that somehow to your kids, you can move past that feeling that you had one.

Yeah. And I think something with Martha too, I correct me if I'm wrong. I think she talks about like her mother was similar where her mother wasn't very maternal, or maybe it was her like she was close with her dad because he was in some something like that. They had more in she had more in common with her dad, wasn't that close with her mom. ⁓ but yeah, like I think you have to know that your kid like you just have to have a relationship with them.

at every stage and know that it's not gonna be always like mother to to child relationship. It's gonna be adult to adult. And like navigating that shift is not something I can speak to. But I think that's what happens at some point. I think it happens maybe earlier than you even think. Like I can see it happening with again, like my sisters and my like my nieces and nephews and their parents. It like slowly becomes like, yeah, they're their own people.

⁓ and they're young still I think the oldest is 13. So yeah, I think that's the key is it's it can't always be like parent to child and like 'cause it's I don't know.

No, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I can't really speak to anything I'm talking about right now. But but no, I think it's just I really appreciate having all of these stories accessible as I'm trying to decide if I want to become a parent. And like we've said, like I also am very much considering not having kids, like seriously, definitely considered it. ⁓ and currently I'm leaning toward having kids, but like I can imagine my life without kids and it is exciting for sure.

And like fulfilling. I can see all of the ways.

Yeah, you can.

I would like to take my life and I will still do all of that with a kid, but I'm but I'm not naive and I know that the kids take priority and that's just like the choice I'd be making.

Right. And it's just and it's beautiful. It's like the first couple of years are harder to do those things. But like once they're a little bit more independent, it becomes easier to like travel and do do things that you want to do. But anyway, I think that's

worries me because like none of that like really bot like I don't even think about the things I won't be able to do because whatever the kid needs I would do.

And it's because you're doing something like so different and fun. Like it's not like sure, some things are a sacrifice, but it's really not.

No, because I've decided to parent these kids and if these kids are conducive to the thing that we want to try out, great. If they're not, then then then we're just not gonna do that. Like that's the decision I'm making when I get pregnant. You know what I mean? Like and that's what

Exactly. Life is gonna change and it you're not gonna be as maybe social or as out and about as you were. And that's like you you accept that and then you're doing like you're being a parent. It's fun. You know, you're doing like you're spending time with your kid.

Right. And that's just like it in summary of all this, like that's again, I'm speaking to women who I know are like, I don't want you to not have kids because you listen to Crazy Lady on the internet. This is the reality of that. Like all of these stories are being shared. I l am so appreciative to all the women who share their stories, whether good or bad, especially the bad ones, because it doesn't make me afraid.

I want to make my own ⁓ informed decision. And the more information I have is is just a plus. And with all the information, I'm just that just better informs my decision and and makes that decision to have kids more rich. So I don't know. Just yay women. Thank

I like that. It makes it it makes that decision to have kids more rich. I think that's a nice way to end it. Or to not have kids more rich too. You know, it just makes that decision in general, like you can feel better about it no matter what. Bottom line. Anyway, we

Exactly. Or you go on women should make their own decisions. Yes. Be an informed, intelligent decision at all. Yes.

And it should Yes. And women should keep sharing their honest and true experiences with each other.

Exactly. Including you, R Larissa. Thank you.

Thank you, Larissa.

Thanks, Arlene.

Yes. Well, thanks for listening, everybody.

I can't believe you're still here. Thanks for coming back. ⁓

I've c I bought a microphone. I have to keep coming.

Well I was talking to the audience.

Your confidence in me.

I mean I'm the one who tried to cancel today's recording, so we're sticking it out and you're sticking it out with us.

We're sticking it out. Yeah, alright. Well thank you listeners for still being here.

This has been Catching Up with Liz and Abby. Bye. Bye.